[Originally published in Turkish Daily News]
Mainstream Turkish media loves to be alarmist about the creeping Islamization of Turkey. Especially since the conservative AKP (Justice and Development Party) came to power in 2002, fear mongering about the shariah imposers has become the main theme of the secularist press. Some fear that we will soon become another Iran. Others worry that we will turn into another Malaysia (which doesn’t sound too bad, actually). Even the non-delusional secularists, which make up a tiny minority, are deeply concerned about the rise of Islam.
I beg to differ completely. No, Turkey is not getting more religious. It is actually getting more secular. And from a devout perspective, that is in fact a reason for concern.
Conservative But Relaxed
I am speaking here out of, not my sixth sense, but objective social research. Almost every survey about Turkish society finds that religious observance is becoming more visible but also less dense. The most recent study carried out by the US-based Pew Research Center came to the same conclusion. As also reported by the Turkish Daily News with a sum-it-up-all headline, Conservative But Relaxed About It, the survey found out that the conservativization of Turkey was only in appearance. Indeed, with rising levels of education and income, the country has become more flexible and less conservative. And, the number of people not fasting and not praying or who have a positive attitude toward dating has increased.
This, as I noted, is the exact opposite of what most urban secularist Turks believe. And their misconception of the reality might well be related to the fact that they have faced it just recently. Before the AKP’s ascendance, they were not just clueless but also uninterested about the role of religion in society. And when they took a look at it, they were shocked.
A conversation I recently had with a secularist colleague of mine told me much. If you go to the little towns of Central Anatolia, he was anxiously telling me, you feel as if you are in the Middle East. In return, I asked him whether those same places felt like Amsterdam or Southern California before the AKP came to power. He didn’t have much to say.
An overlooked element in the ongoing secularization of Turkey is the loss of the true meaning of religion. Nilüfer Narlı of the Bahçeşehir University, as again reported by the TDN, notes: religion loses its significance as a practice while it gets stronger in terms of belonging, as an identity. If you are a believer in Muslim nationalism, as I call that approach, you can think that this is fine. But if you are a believer in the Muslim faith, which focuses on not your social label but your relationship with God, then you should be concerned.
I think one bad outcome of this identity-based religiosity is the uncivilized reactions we sometimes see against those who go against its norms. The cases of harassment against people who consume or sell alcohol during the Ramadan are a good example. Please note that nobody is harassed in this country for not going to the mosque when the daily prayer time comes. But those who are considered disrespectful by profaning the holy month can receive an insult or, unfortunately, even a fist.
Then perhaps it is not an accident that the perpetrators of such Ramadan attacks in Turkey are often the ülkücüs, i.e., the militant nationalists that favor the Nationalist Action Party (the MHP), rather than the mosque-going traditional conservatives who would sympathize with the AKP. In the past some ülkücüs have also attacked young guys with long hair, earrings, or tattooed chests. That kind of outfit, they believe, is not just a degeneration of, but also an insult to, Turkishness. (So, I would suggest you to be careful about the distinction between ülkücüs and devout Muslims. The Ramadan vigilantes come very often from the former camp.)
Class Struggle Revisited
The secularization of society is evident in the loss of not just of the meaning of religion, but also religiosity itself. To see how this takes place, you should note that religion is very much linked to class in this country. The mosque community is often made up of people with rural backgrounds and low level-incomes. As you move up the social ladder, observance and even faith becomes less and less present. In the very posh districts of Istanbul, you will find more followers of New Age cults or simple hedonism than Islam.
Those upscale secular Turks fear that conservatives will dominate the country and forcibly convert them. But actually the reverse is happening. As society gets richer, the culture of the upper class spreads to the lower classes, too. If this trend continues, as it happened in Europe, Turkish society might become quite areligious in a few decades.
The only remedy to this secularization process can be the modernization of the form of religion. If devout Muslims can reframe their faith in a structure that will appeal to the urban middle class, as Americans Protestants have been able to do, then things will de different. Then Turkey might not just avoid extreme secularization, but also become the crucible of the modern interpretation of Islam.
“Those upscale secular Turks fear that conservatives will dominate the country and forcibly convert them. But actually the reverse is happening. As society gets richer, the culture of the upper class spreads to the lower classes, too. If this trend continues, as it happened in Europe, Turkish society might become quite areligious in a few decades.”
a perfect approach, and what the distinguished author is telling us is true as well…
I wonder what is wrong with secularisation? What is “extreme secularisation”? And what is the “modernisation” of Islam? How devout Muslims are supposed to reframe their religion to appeal to the urban middle classes? Mr.Akyol is characteristically vague on this. He always uses labels like “extreme secularism”, “modern Islam”, “liberal-Islamic”, etc. But unfortunately he never succeeds in explaining the meaning of all this. These are hollow concepts that say nothing.
Mr.Akyol, why don´t you explain what you mean by “modern Islam” that would appeal to “urban middle classes”? Is it fashionable headscarves that urban secular women should somehow get attracted to, if “devout Muslims reframe their faith”? It is actually what is going on in Egypt for some time now. Not only urban middle class women went veiled in last decades, but also many elite women too (including great number of actresses, singers, etc.). Is this the model Mr.Akyol wants also for Turkey?
I wonder why is it so difficult to Mr.Akyol to understand that some people might prefer to live WITHOUT religion? I tell you, Mustafa-bey: I DO NOT need ANY religion, whether it is “modern”, “liberal”, “moderate”, etc. I am no less moral person because of that – and certainly much more moral than those devout “moderate Muslims” from Deniz Feneri. Why can´t you comprehend that by its very nature religion is a PRIVATE matter? I do not need Islam or any other religion in my life!
What´s wrong with you, Mustafa Akyol?
Mr Akyol:
Have you read “Turkey Decoded” by Ann Dismorr? She was the swedish ambassador in Ankara from 2001 to 2005.
She is convinced that the AK P government want to transform Turkey to an european democracy.
Now should I believe old communists and kemalist writers in Dogans media- cartel or Dismorr?
Dismorr also writes about a meeting between the former swedish foreign minister, Anna Lindh (Social Democrat) and Primeminister Erdogan. During their conversation Lindh told Erdogan that she would vote for his party if she was a turkish citizen.
Now, let me once again ask you who I should trust when it comes to AK P and their so called ”taliban agenda”:
Former foreign minister Anna Lindh or crazy kemalist writers?
Until 2002 (when AK P took over) Sweden was a harsh critic of Turkeys treatment of kurds, the lack of human rights etc.
Today both the swedish right and left want to see Turkey in EU. Sweden has transformed to a supporter of a turkish memebership in EU.
Ingemar Karlsson was Swedens consul-general in Istanbul between 2001-2008. This man wrote a very interesting article about AKP (2007) in a very prominent periodical in Sweden.
His headline is ”The women are the winners” and is about AK P reforms concerning women rights.
Ingemar Karlsson is a famous social democrat in Sweden.
Now why in the hell should I believe Dogans communist and kemalist writers?
Is there one single ”islamic”law which has been passed by the AK P government since 2002?
No there is NOT!
I have visited conservative anatolian cities like Konya and Sivas. You can buy alkohol in stores or visit bars there. In Sivas I visited AK Ps main office and told the office worker that I was from Sweden and wanted to become a member of the party. The office worker was astonished but registered me for 1 YTL. Afterwards I went to a bar to celebrate. Efes taste goood!
Mr Akyol: Is there any demand for alcohol in cities like Sivas? I dont think so, so why should people open bars?
AK Ps democratization of Turkey has decreased radicalisation in the country.
Conservative muslims in Turkey are oppressed by a sectarian kemalist bureaucracy in the name of secularism.
When you are discriminated you understand the meaning of democracy and universal human rights.
Fortunately AK Ps democratization (which also led to welfare) gave the turkish people a possibility to taste the sweetness of democracy. Now there is no way back and the people demand more freedom.
Thats the main reason why over 50% of the voters in Turkey support AK P!
Mr Akyol:
I demand more freedoms for my;
- Kurdish countrymen
- Alevi countrymen
- Conservative sunni countrymen (the headscarf ban makes me very angry. If I was a woman I would wear it to protest the kemalist sect!)
There is one freedom that is very important for me. The freedom to wear the Fez.
Why can I not go to Alanya, hold a Efes- beer in my hand and wear a fez? The police let my swedish friend wear it in 2000 but not me. They stopped me when I wore my dear fez. They told me to take it off!
Maybe it is ok for foreigners to wear fez in Turkey but not for ordinary turks?
But how about two swedish muslim friends of mine (converts) who are going to Istanbul in spring to study at a university?
Will the kemalist rector let them attend classes? At least they are not turkish!
Welcome To Kemalist Republic of Ergenekon!
85 years 85 years, 85years. o-o-o öff öff
And its the same -
The same philosophy
Ive said its for 85 years;
Look, how long
But the people started to see.
Why do they fight against the youth of today?
And without these youths, they would be gone -
All gone astray
Come on, lets make a move:
Make a move Make a move
I can see time – time has come,
And if-a fools dont see
Fools dont see, Fools dont see.
I cant save the youth:
The youth is gonna be strong.
So, wont you come with me;
Ill take you to a land of liberty
Where we can live – live a good, good life
And be free.
Look how long: 85 years, 85 years, 85 years
Way too long!
Thats the reason why my people have not seen before.
Said, its 85 long years -
Give me patience – same philosophy.
Its been 85 years, 85 years, 85 years)
Wait so long!
How long? 85 long, long years.
Erdogan: Please change the Kemalist junta constitution so I can celebrate with a Cuban cigar and Raki while I listen to The Doors.
I can not wait any longer!
Interesting article. What is the evidence that it is the nationalist MHP types that are punching alcohol sellers in Ramadan rather than the “traditional” conservatives? Also is not true that the AKP also attracts its fair share of such nationalist types?
Osman, could I kindly ask you to be more concise in your deliberations? Believe me, it is not interesting at all to read these rantings of an angry young man. So at least, please, respect others and be short.
As to Dismorr´s book, I read it. She makes several good points, especially about the situation of women in the South-East. Otherwise, however, I find the book too long on generalities about “dialogue of civilisations” and too short on specific details of Turkey´s integration to the EU as seen (and supported) by a former diplomat. Besides, sometimes it feels like she wrote it in the AKP headquarters. The views of the other part are almost ignored. So on balance I found this book quite weak and of limited usefulness.
By the way, with all due respect to Swedes, it is none of their business to set standards for other nations as far as secularism is concerned. They could do worse than to look closer into their own “multiculturalism”, which has led to creation of new ghettos, where secular laws do not apply anymore.
Parviz:
Ofcourse you can. There are two groups in Turkey. One group are the kemalists who want the military to carry out coups (they even have a terroristgroup-ERGENEKON). The other groups consist of democrats. We have liberals, conservatives, social democratc,kurds and ex nationalists in this group (AK P). The majority in Turkey is oppressed by the minority (Kemalist bureaucracy, kemalist military and kemalist opposition). The majority want to transform Turkey to an european democracy. This is not in the interest of the Kemalist Republic of Ergenekon and therefore they are fighting the AK P.
Ofcourse you do not like Dismorrs book. But the thing is that the AK P government has convinced a hole world but not the kemalists in Turkey. The kemalist do not want to loose their power and influence.
The question that all turkish citizens should ask themself is:
Do I want to live in the Kemalist Republic of Ergenekon or in EU.
AK P want Turkey to become an EU memeber. CHP and MHP do not want that.
What do you want Parviz? Are you against a turkish memebership in EU?
Are you a coup supporter?
I see that you are trying to compare Turkey to Sweden. Please dont! Instead you should compare The Kemalist Republic of Ergenekon to Greece and Bulgaria.
Is Turkey a richer country than Greece and the former communist country Bulgaria? Look it up please!
Now let us bet dear fellow countrymen Parviz:
I will give CHP 100 Dollars if the kemalist military dont interfe in politics when the Parlament opens. I had a revelation last night. I saw commander Basbugu say stupid things with the intention to stop AK Ps planned constitution changes. During my revelation I also saw Dogans media cartel doing everything in their power to turn up the tension in Turkey.
Parviz: You still thinks that AK P has a hidden “taliban agenda”.
Why does not Cemil Ipekci fear AK Ps “taliban agenda”?
This man is openly gay and a worldwide known fashion maker. He is against the kemalist headscarf ban. Once he said that he would take his business in Istanbul and leave Turkey if the constitution court closed down AK P.
Sinan Cetin is a socialist who lived in German for several years (political reasons ofcourse). He is married to a german woman. He is also a well known director in Turkey. During a TV show he said that Turkey had seen a Revolution ( I hate that word) during AK Ps rule.
Now do you realize that the problem in Turkey is not AK P, but the absence of a democratic leftist party?
Which party would you vote for in Turkey?
CHP? MHP? DTP? ÖDP?
Just listen to what Sinan Cetin- a socialist says about the “taliban” party AK P!
Parviz: I dedicate this movie to you!
Mutlu Ol Bu Bir Emirdir! By Sinan Cetin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbbp8ac8ROQ
The film is about the Kemalist Republics efforts to conduct a Kemalist Cultural Revolution in Turkey during the 30s. The republic forbid turkish music, turkish folk instruments and played european classic music on the radio (24/7). (OBS! The kurds had there share of this fantastic Kemalist Revolution in the east).
Anatolian turks were forbidden to play turkish folk instruments. The Kemalist Republic wanted the people to be more westernized (they imitated everything in France). Today the Kemalists consider the west as an imperialistic power.
Welcome to the beautiful mind of the Kemalists.
May God save the turks from the Kemalist Republic of Ergenekon and give them democracy!
AMEN!
Parviz says:
“By the way, with all due respect to Swedes, it is none of their business to set standards for other nations as far as secularism is concerned”
It is time to take of the burqa of inferiority complex that has been forced on my people.
That day will come, if God wants to!
By the way, according to the EU commissioner Ollie Rehn the tension in Turkey is between extreme secularists and Muslim democrats.
Turkey’s tension is between extreme secularists and Muslim democrats
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=104107
By Olli Rehn.
What is your oppinion about EU my dear friend?
Others worry that we will turn into another Malaysia (which doesn’t sound too bad, actually).
————————————————-
Dear Mustafa,
Maybe you are not aware about how Malaysia is ruled, but with a population which only 60% of them are Muslim, its the official state religion!
Although the Malaysian constitution theoretically guarantees religious freedom, in practice the situation is restricted. Additionally, all non-Muslims who marry a Muslim must renounce their religion and convert to Islam. Meanwhile, non-Muslims experience restrictions in activities such as construction of religious buildings and the celebration of certain religious events in some states. In one Sharia rules!
And in general regarding all states of the Malaysia the supreme courts of the land, the Civil Courts (including the Federal Court, the highest court in Malaysia) in principal cannot overrule any decision made by the Syariah Courts; and presently are reluctant to preside over cases involving Islam in any nature or question or challenge the authority of the Syariah courts.
This has caused notable problems, particularly involving civil cases between Muslims and non-Muslims, in which civil courts have ordered non-Muslims to seek recourse from the Syariah Courts.
This is not what you want in Turkey, or I am wrong?
Kindest
Osman, first get yourself minimally acquainted with the EU rules and norms. Then start spitting your venom around, angry young man.
I work in an EU institution myself. So stop telling me stories about the EU. The EU is not a bunch of naive fools you and your fellow brainwashed islamists want to believe it is. They are sort of forced to support the AKP, since Europeans don’t approve of the military involvement in politics as a matter of principle (I don’t necessarily agree with them on this, but this is another story). But no one shares the AKP conservative social agenda. The day a credible social-democratic or genuinely liberal (and not this Akyol’s Islamo-liberal nonsense) party emerges in Turkey, the AKP will lose European support. Now they are being supported because Europeans see them as a lesser evil, not because of any sympathy towards this party. Of course, Dismorr can write whatever she wants about the “wonderful” AKP, but who cares? The West is all about pluralism. Didn’t you know that? There are scores of another opinions on AKP, many of them much less flattering than Dismorr’s. Didn’t you pay attention? Do you homework first before engaging in polemics.
I asked you specific questions
hoping you will be able to come to your senses and show some minimal decency, as well as understanding of democracy. As expected, you failed the test miserably. Because you don’t really care about democracy. You don’t care that people get beaten in Turkey because they don’t observe Ramadan. You don’t care that a religious fanatic Adnan Oktar, for whom Akyol worked as his spokesperson, is managing to shut down one Darwinist webpage after another in Turkey. This guy should have been expelled from Turkey or rot in jail till the end of his days. Yet he enjoys full freedom in Turkey to inflict damage on its education system. You are just too blind and ignorant in your hatred of Kemalism and Kemalists to notice such things.
Ah, the last thing. Now I got it, why you are so hateful. You don’t like the classical music! Here we go. To comprehend the music of Bach and Handel is obviously too demanding for you…Now I see why you are so angry….
Hans, this is EXACTLY what Akyol wants in Turkey. He just tries to package this islamic nonsense in “modern” clothes that would “appeal” to secular middle-classes. He is an Islamic missionary disguised as a “liberal”.
Parviz:
Why do you call me an islamist?
Why do all kemalists have this extreme (fanatic) need to categorize their own people?
When I share my views with kemalists on different forums they always call me nasty things. Why?
I am not an islamist. I am a democrat who want Turkey to join EU. I read the bible before I read the Quran. I went to a church before I visited a mosque. This christian group gave me lessons in Bible knowledge for 2 years:
WELCOME TO THE SWEDISH PENTECOSTAL MOVEMENT!
http://www.pingst.se/english/
I am still a muslim who cant pray (I plan to learn because I am getting older and need spiritualism in my life).I have been a beer drinker (Staropramen)since I was 15 years old but these days I play with the thought to become a teetotaller. Why? Ofcourse there are some religious reasons, but the main reason is that it is unhealthy.
You write about Mustafa Akyol and that he worked as Adnan Oktars spokeman.
Well, I know who Adnan Oktar is. He is one of those conservatives who contribute to the modernization of Islam in Turkey. He is a well educated democrat and do not support political islamism.I also now the past of Mustafa Akyols father Taha Akyol. Mr Taha Akyol and my father were political opponents during the 70s (my father was a communist and still likes Ataturk:). Today I read Taha Akyols son´s blog and get enlightened. I consider him as one of the best thinkers and debaters in Turkey.
Now I also know that Taha Akyol works for Dogans Milliyet Newspapaer and that he was the deputy chairman of executive board of CNN-Türk.
Mistik Akyol is the greatest writer on Turkish Daily News together with Cengiz Candar.
I also know that Dogan-Media is against the AK P government.
So why do I luuuve “The Akyols” (I really like the AK-part of the name:))who work for the Dogan-Cartel?
When I read your comments there are only conspiracy theories. Adnan Oktar is a taliban in costume. AK P is a taliban party (before the elections the kemalist left even said that they worked for zionists)and you write about a threath that do not exist.
Why do I not care about “The Akyols” employer? What do you think?
I do not hate kemalists. I do not like kemalism as an idelogy but do not want to forbid it. I just want the kemalists to accept the framework set by democracy and law. These days kemalists just want to carry out coups and act lawyers for members of the terroristgroup Ergenekon (who are kemalists as well).
To be honest I don not like classic music. I like Tribal House, sweet reggae music, Motown and Woodstock rock. I also like Grup Yorum, Kardes Turkuler and Ahmet Kaya (the lost son of Turkey). Bulent “Billy” Ersoy is good to.
When I answer your comments here on Akyols blog I always listen to Mehter- Genc Osman.
Parviz:
Why do you work for EU if you are against it?
Which party do you vote for?
Why do you want the military to carry out coups?
I may be a liberal-conservative, but I have been very influenced by two writers.
Mustafa “Musti” Akyol and Mehmet “Memo” Altan.
I want Kemalistan to transform to Turkey- an EU member.
Ikinci Cumhuriyet- Inshallah!
Now you know that I get very poetic when you express the beauty of the Kemalist mind. Here is my EU- poem:
EU- We are leaving Kemalistan
In this life, in this life,
We are coming in from the cold
It is you I am talking to
When one door is closed, don’t you know other is open?
Would you let the system make you kill your brotherman?
NO NO NO NO NO!
Would you make the system get inside your head again?
NO NO NO NO NO!
The Turks are coming in from the cold
Don’t you know: When one door is closed – when one door is closed, many more is open?
Parviz:
I think that the west is the best. EU, USA and Israel are our allies and not Russia, Iran and China!
What do you think?
Osman,
where did you take this nonsense from that I am against the EU? And what is the business of yours which party do I vote? I am a social-democrat with strong laicist convictions. I like the French style laicite, and I deeply dislike the watered-down secularism of Anglo-Saxons.
The EU, as you see, has many models. Is France a member of the EU or not? Is it a democracy or not? and yet it forbids headscarves in schools, and is absolutely right in doing so.
So, be more careful with your generalisations about the EU.
As for coups, I don´t like them. Really. But sometimes there is no other way of getting rid of some nasty guys like Erbakan.
Now about Adnan Oktar. How come he is a “modernizer”, if he calls the evolution theory “a work of Satan”? Don´t they teach evolution theory in Sweden? He also calls on women to wear headscarves, which I find the most insulting, oppressing and denigrating symbol of islam. He is a dangerous religious fanatic. Period.
Frankly, I could not care less whether you read Bible or Quran. For me, both of these are just useless. Religion is a poison. I despise religions and clergymen. Ataturk was absolutely right in suppressing the clergy. By the way, I have Persian ancestry, and look what the mullahs did in Iran. I am really, really sorry that the late Shah Pahlavi (peace be upon him) was weak enough not to suppress the revolution and not to kill Humeyni. It was his mistake. Wherever the Muslim clergy intervenes in politics, it is invariably a disaster.
Mr. Akyol,
Given Turkey’s possibility of entering into the European Union, do you think a stronger bond between the “West” and the “Muslim World” could be created if it is able to join successfully?
This kind of modernized form of Islam that you described as necessary to avoid extreme secularization may also be crucial to striking an understanding between the West and the Muslim world. If Westerners could see Turkey joining the EU with a modernized and reformed religion that appeals to Turkey’s urban middle-class (as you mentioned how the Protestantism spread in America’s middle class), do you think they might be more open minded to recognizing Islam as a diverse and widespread religion?
John,
your argument is delusional.
First, there can be no such thing as modernized and reformed islam. There can be, though, a modernized and reformed society, where religion is basically confined to private realm. Just like it is in Europe. Mr.Akyol and you can call it “extreme secularization”, but this is the essence of the EU project. After all, Turkey is joining the EU, not US.
Second, even if we accept that “modernized” islam can exist, its usefulness would be not in its potential appeal to urban middle classes, but to conservative segments. In other words, the progress lies not in secularists becoming more religious, but in conservatives becoming more modern – and here “modernized islam” can play certain useful role. But Akyol turns the argument upside down – he is interested in drawing secularists to religion, not in modernizing conservatives with their medieval approach towards roles of sexes, etc. He wants a more conservative society, with more women wearing headscarves, less people consuming alcohol, etc.
Third, Turkey’s experience with secularism is quite unique in the Muslim world. Turkey must be treated exclusively as a nation state, not as a part of “Muslim world”. To consider Turkey as a potential agent in “striking an understanding between the West and the Muslim world” is either hopelessly naive or downright sinister. Turkey can only play such a role if it becomes less secular and more islamic. Why should Turks agree to such a thing?
Parviz:
So you are a social democrat and a kemalist at the same time? How is that possible? I have a ultra-nationalist friend who supports MHP and he also calls himself kemalist.
Osman,
what surprises you? I admire Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and regard him a brilliant, visionary leader and a true patriot. His secularist vision is totally compatible with social-democratic vision. In fact, Ataturk is widely respected and admired among the European social-democrats. Some of them would even like his policies being applied in their own countries. Believe me or not, but I know British Laborists who prefer the Turkish notion of secularism to the British nonsense of having a state church. And of course, the French greatly admire Mustafa Kemal. I am not talking here about despicable people like Ingemar Karlsson, the Swedish consul general in Istanbul. These people are blinded by their wishful thinking and naive Islamophilia. How Sweden behaved during the caricature crisis was a shame and disgrace! They betrayed the Danes in order to please Islamists. I hope they will pay the price eventually, and all their multiculturalist nonsense will crumble and eventually be destroyed. I have no respect for such people at all, for they are cowards, appeasers and traitors, not social-democats.
Parviz:
Answer my question please. My MHP friend denies the kurds, hates the EU and want to execute terrorists and other criminals.
Why do you think that the Socialist International want to kick out CHP- The so called social democrat party in Turkey?
Osman, I am not going to answer your questions, since you don´t answer mine. Full stop.
Deal with your MHP friend yourself. This is not my business.
What is your oppinion concerning the Ergenekon investigation?
Do you still want the military to carry out a coups and overthrow the AK P government?
How can a ultra-nationalist who is against EU and human rights share the same ideology as a social democrat like you?
How do you want to solve the kurdish issue in Turkey?
Which party do you vote for in Turkey? CHP, ÖDP or DTP? They are the so called leftist parties in the parlament.
You say that you work for EU. Are you familiar with the ERASMUS exchange agreement between Turkey and EU? Are swedish students (swedish citizens) who wear the headscarf welcome to study at turkish unis where the headscarf is banned? If your answer to my question is a no, my resulting question is:
Is this compatible with the ERASMUS agreement between Turkey and the Commission? If this is the case, then we have a genuine discrimination against EU citizens.
Osman,
I don´t share the ultranationalists´ approach to the Kurdish or Armenian issues. The fact that I intensely dislike the AKP´s social conservatism does not prevent me from recognising that on these issues they have been more rational and open-minded that some of the Kemalists, let alone ultranationalists. The campaign against Orhan Pamuk, for example, is a shame and disgrace for Turkey! I also acknowledge that AKP on the whole has been more open-minded in their dealings with Europeans than some of the traditional elite. Does it make me believe in their sincerity? No. They just learned some mistakes from the Erbakan era, and they realised that they need to have the West on their side and portray the Kemalists as “ultranationalists” and “anti-Europeanists” (some of them, unfortunately, indeed are). It´s a very smart strategy, and to great extent it worked.
But now the AKP has lost any moral reason to be considered as “underdog fighting the mighty state with the military on its helm”. They have been in power for 6 years now, and they must be held accountable for their corruption and their intolerance of other views.
As far as the Erasmus program is concerned, it cannot be given higher priority than Turkish laws. The European Court of human Rights concluded in 2005 that Turkey´s ban on headscarves does not violate human rights.
Generally speaking, I am fed up with every single discussion on democracy and human rights ending up with headscarves issue. We definitely should take a broader approach. Why not discuss the rights of homosexuals, for example? They are in a far worse situation that women in headscarves!
All your arguments are based on conspiracy theories. You dont look at what AK P do but the people who is in the party.
How many % of the AK P do you consider as “islamists”?
20%, 30% 50 or even 100%?
Corruption has reduced since AK P came to power. You point at the Deniz Feneri investigation, but I can point to 30 corruption cases against CHP. I can even write about the former president Sezer and how he finance ultra-kemalist fascist groups.
Erasmu: So students from Germany, Sweden and Holland are not welcome to Turkey and study at turkish unis as long as they wear the headscarf?
80% of the women in Turkey wear the headscarf so it is a huge group which is discrimated by the state. Ofcourse BTH-people are important to, but this is a ban that must be cancelled.
I am a AK P supporter, now which party do you vote for?
There is no other option for a democrat in Turkey but AK P!
CHP- militarist party which supports the Ergenekon movement.
MHP- hopefully you are not a crazy ultra nationalist who hates the EU.
DTP- I do not want to shut the party down, but do not think that you are a kurdish nationalist who supports PKK.
ÖDP maybe?
Do you want a new democratic constituion without any sign of kemalism?
The state ideology kemalism is the big problem here. This ideology has set a framework that can not be breached by politicans. It do not matter whether you call yourself social democrat, liberal, conservative or communist.
80% of women in Turkey wear headscarves? Or may be 100% straight away? When have you been in Turkey the last time??
Get your statistics right first and don’t become a laughing stock. At most it’s 60%, and the numbers are actually decreasing. Ever heard about TESEV research on this?
What you are saying about “democratic AKP” is such a vulgar, self-complacent nonsense that I am not even going to comment on it again. It is just another rightist party, like that of Menderes, Demirel and Ozal, with the same core supporters. The only difference is that now their supporters have moved to cities, but they remain villagers in their hearts and in their approaches. The AKP is just a repugnant mix of money and showy piety. Erdogan is an uneducated, corrupt and arrogant brute. I suggest you to read a big article of Perry Anderson in the last London Review of Books. He is no friend of Kemalism, by the way. But he is very precise in his description of “moderates” from AKP, and here lies the big difference with those self-deluded naive fools in Western media who admire the “moderate Muslims”.
Stop asking me about which party I vote. It is just none of your business.
sman,
You seem to be fooled by numbers. CHP has 30 corruption cases whereas AKP has one. What does that mean? I should be thankful to AKP for being less corrupt? AKP has islamists of whatever percent, CHP has none. I should feel safe as far as my rights in this world and my spot after life are concerned? Roughly, 80 percent of our population would keep their daughters at home, and literally sell them to semi-strangers without the consent of their daughters under the archaic tradition of “baslik parasi” system. So should we allow this 80 percent to continue this tradition? Or perhaps, we can divide the whole country into different categories of our likes and dislikes where everybody can practice anything depending on the proportion of the group they represent. Although this sounds like a ridiculous attempt to negotiate “primitiveness” in a democratic regime, Erbakan suggested something very similar quite some time ago.
The “democratic” system you are referring to is in fact called the tyranny of the majority, and it sits at the opposite end of anarchy (together with relious regimes) on the political spectrum. I also do not think this quasi-scientific statistical approach to democracy is capable of achieving the rights and freedoms you are referring to simply because it feeds the type of Kemalism you are criticizing.
I do not think religious rights should be at the top of our democratization agenda. I feel depressed when I look at the rights of the workers, and what they have gained since 1980. If you compare workers’ rights with those claimed by our “conservative muslim” population, you will realize that they have quite a long way to go. I am not insensitive to the demands of our conservative population but I frankly think that this demand is being abused by politicians for gains in their inter- and intra-order conflicts. Unfortunately, this struggle is supported by our highly depoliticized and ignorant population simply because it is “trendy”. Islamism has become but a trend among different classes and (and youth) for various reasons, incuding economic gains and political power promised through affiliation with AKP.
I am sure I would be much more popular if I supported this myopic trend. However, I am unsympathetic to our “consevative populations” desire for state’s “stamp of approval” so that they can assure themselves that their religious practices are in fact “modern” and compatible with democracy (as the trendy islamo-liberal argument claims). I would like to spend my time for struggling for legitimate rights and the rights of those who are truly in need.
Why did 16 million 340.000 turkish citizens vote for AK P in the July 2007 elections?
Parviz write:
“The only difference is that now their supporters have moved to cities, but they remain villagers in their hearts and in their approaches.”
Are 16 million 340.000 turkish voters “villagers in their heart and in their approaches”?
By the way, whats wrong being a villager? Are they not citizens in Turkey to?
Parviz writes:
“Roughly, 80 percent of our population would keep their daughters at home, and literally sell them to semi-strangers without the consent of their daughters under the archaic tradition of “baslik parasi” system. So should we allow this 80 percent to continue this tradition?”
How many % of the turkish population in Turkey is against this sick and crazy headscarf ban?
According to Parviz 16 million turkish voters are “villagers”. According to Cingöz 80% of the turkish men would sell their daughters to strangers. Do you have any source for this statement?
Now let us see what the AK P has done for the turkish women:
The Penal Code which was introduced by Ataturk was copied from the italian penal code from 1889 but adapted to turkish traditions,
for example
- A womans body was considered to be the property of the men
-Sexual assaults against women was considered as a crime against the family honour
-” Marital rape” was not a crime
-A rapest could avoid prison if he married his victim and ”saved” the womans honour.
-Umarried women were consistently valued less than married women.
In september 2004 my dear AK P government changed 35 articles in the ”kemalist” turkish Penal Code and removed the above mentioned sick articles.
-Marital rape was criminalized.
-Penalty reduction for crimes conducted to protect the family honour was abolished.
-Sexual harrasment at work was criminalized.
The AK P government has also launched several programmes to counteract domestic violence and increase the possibilities to get work for women.
AK P also has a huge woman organizatin with 800.000 members.
In 2004 it was ok for me to rape my wife in Kemalistan.
Today it is a crime and you can get prison.
Welcome to Democratic Republic of Turkey!
Parviz:
Why was it okej for the turkish people (”villagers”) to comit ”honour crimes” in Turkey before my dear fellow ”Talibans” came to power in 2002?
Please enlight a villager like me!
And how many “women talibans” are members of the parlament for AK P?
Osman,
You are missing everyone’s point, and deliberately manipulating my point just like politicians do. Perhaps, you should become one. However, I would be truly scared because you seem to be fooled by the logic that majority is always right. If it was as simple as that why do you think there are constitutions and laws that you love to refer to? We could have showed up at the Parliament, and raised our hands just like in city states. Who cares if we lose Plato and others like him on the way?
I was trying to provide you an example where the majority of people’s beliefs may not be in the interest of all in the long run. It is as simple as that; but for some reason you love bringing the topic back to AKP, and how great they are, that they passed great laws, that they are the next great thing invented after sliced bread, and etc. Then you claimed that I was suggesting that 80 percent of families would sell their daughters. It was a hypothetical example/question to demonstrate that you may encounter masses whose practices may dominate the majority but they may not be “right” and “just” practices. Dont you use hypothetical examples at the courts?
I started to believe that you advocate AKP more than democracy, which otherwise would be the gist of your arguments. You seem to have a very Machiavellian approach. As long as AKP or any other party oppose whomever you have some bad history, you will support them at any cost. The logic that my enemy’s enemy is my friend. This is the logic that would hurt you in the long run.
I would like to make it clear to you that I do not like AKP, CHP, MHP and etc. So it is truly pointless to argue which one is better than the other. I see these parties as tools in my search for democracy. I am not their chairperson, cheerleader group, fan club member or back scratcher. I advise you to do the same.
Cingöz:
I understand your point.
Present a alternative to AK P, I mean a true democratic leftist alternative.
Can you do that? You just complain, but for no good. Its time to realize that the problem in Turkey is not AK P , but the military, kemalist bureaucracy and the absence of a democratic opposition.
Taraf Daily:
I salute you, liberal soldiers of turkish democracy!
Erdogan: It is time to bitchslap commander Basbugu.
Kurds in Diyarbekir:
See the got damn pattern for gods sake! It is time for you to see how the PKK gladely act errands boys to the deep state in the army.
A salam from Malaysia..
Actually we in Malaysia are actually more worried non-Muslims in Malaysia are trying to push it to a Secularist position, akin to what Turkey under Kemal Ataturk became,
and taking all aspects of Islam that makes Malaysia so Muslim and Muslims so proud of Malaysia – Out of everything Malaysian.
After Dr Mahathir retired of his 20 year of prosperous reign, we faced a very weak government which certain quarters amongst non-muslims took advantage of and started pushing for a secularist Malaysia and shunning of Islam’s role in Malaysia.
Hindu extremism has crept in the form of HINDRAF and a chinese DAP wants more secularism.
Brilliant! Syukri has summarised perfectly well what is an extremist form of Islamism. No wonder Akyol admires “Malaysian model”.
Syukri, place take your salam back with you, and go to Malaysia. Sooner there will be a civil war in Turkey than it will become something like Malaysia. Got it?
Why is this parviz acting so delusional and rabid.
Have you even ever been to malaysia parviz.
Dun talk with such contempt of our nation..
It is much more peaceful, free and better in the current state than what Turkey has been in the last 50 or more years.
What computer model are you typing on.. make sure you check if the blue chips inside are not “buatan malaysia” or made in malaysia..
or perhaps the rubber tyres of your car or even the vegetable palm oil..
lol..
With all due respect to Turkishness,
Wish turks a good era of reform from radical fanatics and the ilk.
Shafee,
Malaysia
Dear Shafee,
With all due respect to Malaysia, I would not want to live in any country where I am fed with any kind of religious dogma. I understand your point but it is based on economically deterministic logic. I would like to remind you that there is a large literature on developing countries, including Malaysia and how their resources and particularly labor has been exploited by the Multinationals you are proud of. I think economic prosperity at the expense of liberty is the path to exploitation, and you already seem to be the victim of it.